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In a world of monster energy consumers, there isn't any monster quite as scary as China. Already they've surpassed even the United States as the leading emitter of CO2. And while China is still building more coal-fired power plants in a week than America has built in the last two years, there are some signs that China is actually interested in renewable energy.
The first of those signs is China's commitment to be 20% powered by renewable sources by 2020. The Three Gorges Dam, of course, helps them reach this goal. But it doesn't get them all the way. So should we have any faith? Well, China's goal is already to begin to decrease CO2 emissions by 2050 and a recent report from top Chinese scientists calls for the cap to be reached around 2030. This doesn't sound very impressive, really, but with the way China's carbon footprint has grown in the last ten years, it's downright inspiring to think that it could, someday, start to shrink.
The most encouraging thing, however, is what's actually happening right now. China has just broken ground on a 500 MW wind power project and they plan to be done in 2010. That is a ridiculously quick turnaround for a wind power project of that size, and another 1000 MW is planned as a second stage of the project. If the second stage gets completed, China would have one of the world's largest wind farms on its hands.
Even more exciting is today's news that China will be creating a feed-in tariff for utility-scale solar power. China has huge amounts of prime solar land but, until now, hasn't had any incentives in place. The tariff will decrease the cost of solar power by between 16 and 22 cents per kW/h. This is significantly larger than almost all other government subsidies for solar power and should be enough to make financing solar projects make sense.
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written by Tom Gray, August 21, 2009
One of wind power's inherent advantages is that it can be installed very rapidly compared to conventional power plants. If we really want to get serious about cutting carbon emissions quickly, it's one of the best options.--Tom Gray, American Wind Energy Association
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written by MD, August 21, 2009
Tom:
You can put up all the turbines you want, but if you have no means of transporting those electrons then you're looking at some interesting toys spinning in the wind...
I have nothing against wind, I just hate the NIMBYISM associated with new projects.
You can put up all the turbines you want, but if you have no means of transporting those electrons then you're looking at some interesting toys spinning in the wind...
I have nothing against wind, I just hate the NIMBYISM associated with new projects.
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written by Bob Wallace, August 21, 2009
Some places in China (and a small part of Texas) have installed turbines have installed turbines faster than the grid connections they need.
So they'll have to work on power transportation next.
So?
So they'll have to work on power transportation next.
So?
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written by Think Green, August 22, 2009
It's great that China is even starting to work towards this goal of reducing carbon emissions. Only time will tell how serious they are.
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written by dialtone, August 23, 2009
here is a link to the Sept. 2004 issue of Wired magazine - great article - wonder if the Chinese really have started to build these reactors?
http://www.wired.com/wired/arc...hina.html
http://www.wired.com/wired/arc...hina.html
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written by Mark, August 23, 2009
China has that we in Europe and the USA don't have is problems with politics the Chinese government for good or bad get things done. If they say they will invest in coal or solar they will do it, so it is incouraging that many leading Chinese scientists and political leaders are asking for renewables to take centre stage. Chinese does have large levels of corruption but when it comes to securing the future they aren't in the pockets of the energy companies like we are in Europe and the USA.
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written by joe, August 23, 2009
China so far surpasses the efforts of the USA and Europe in alternative energy and sustainability it is ridiculous to comapre. Informed world citizens are sick of the US and others pretending that China is somehow anti low carbon or the big scary carbon moster of the future. In this regard they are your superiors, time to follow the leader and get used to it!
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written by Bob Wallace, August 24, 2009
joe - take me to your data.
China, as far as I know, is number four in terms of installed wind capacity. It's gaining on number three, Spain, but has a way to go to catch up with the US.
At the end of 2007 China wasn't in the top 20 solar electricity producers. Germany was number one, Japan number two, and the US number three.
China does lead in electricity produced with hydro power. The US is number four in hydro power, producing about half as much as China.
You got some numbers that differ?
China, as far as I know, is number four in terms of installed wind capacity. It's gaining on number three, Spain, but has a way to go to catch up with the US.
At the end of 2007 China wasn't in the top 20 solar electricity producers. Germany was number one, Japan number two, and the US number three.
China does lead in electricity produced with hydro power. The US is number four in hydro power, producing about half as much as China.
You got some numbers that differ?
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written by joe, August 24, 2009
There is so much data I am surprised you have not drowned in it. Some examples:
Biogas 5.5 million kW by 2010 30 million kW by 2020 in a program that has been going for over 50years.
A 20% reduction in electricity consupmtion by 2010. They may have trouble hitting this target but the fact is their elecrical consumption is decreasing by 2% or 3% a year while thier economy grows by 8%. A growing developing economy that is reducing consumption!
Have a look for yourself, you will be amazed by what you find.
Biogas 5.5 million kW by 2010 30 million kW by 2020 in a program that has been going for over 50years.
A 20% reduction in electricity consupmtion by 2010. They may have trouble hitting this target but the fact is their elecrical consumption is decreasing by 2% or 3% a year while thier economy grows by 8%. A growing developing economy that is reducing consumption!
Have a look for yourself, you will be amazed by what you find.
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written by Bob Wallace, August 24, 2009
I've never thought of biofuels in terms of kW (you probably mean kWh). Didn't find a quick way to convert from gallons of biofuels to kWh, perhaps you know a way.
Anyway, US production of biofuels, 2008 -
Ethanol 9 billion gallons.
Bio-diesel 2.7 billion gallons.
I did find one source that stated that one gallon of petro-diesel will generate 10 kWh of electricity. Don't know if that's true.
But if it's anywhere close, 10 x 11.7 billion is one big number....
BTW, I'm not interested in who is "winning". I want us all to win, because if we don't we are all going to lose. Big time.
(But I do prefer actual data over bullshit.)
Anyway, US production of biofuels, 2008 -
Ethanol 9 billion gallons.
Bio-diesel 2.7 billion gallons.
I did find one source that stated that one gallon of petro-diesel will generate 10 kWh of electricity. Don't know if that's true.
But if it's anywhere close, 10 x 11.7 billion is one big number....
BTW, I'm not interested in who is "winning". I want us all to win, because if we don't we are all going to lose. Big time.
(But I do prefer actual data over bullshit.)
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written by Bob Wallace, August 24, 2009
Let me follow up a bit...
The kWh per gallon thing. We just don't make much of our electricity with petroleum (or biofuels). Less than 2%.
The kWh per gallon thing. We just don't make much of our electricity with petroleum (or biofuels). Less than 2%.
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written by joe, August 24, 2009
If you don't understand a thing you should probably refrain from comment (reference to your bullshit in lieu of actual knowledge). Biogas is the result of animal and human effluent, it has nothing to do with petrochemical substitution or biofuels. There are currently 22 major projects to develop grid power from this source in China. There are also many millions of people who use this source to supplement thier grid supply, for cooking for example. You seem to think the US is the tail wagging the Dog but it is apparent you have no idea what goes on outside your tiny worldview, open up take a look, one day the US may even catch up instead of being, as it is now, so very far behind.
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written by Ivan, August 24, 2009
...and it can be because you mostly convert it directly to electricity, or heat, or similar...
so you have a stream of poo coming in and a stream of a certain number ow kW in capacity of heat, electricity etc. coming out...
so you would have to multiply that with the number of hours in a year to get the kWh/a...
so you have a stream of poo coming in and a stream of a certain number ow kW in capacity of heat, electricity etc. coming out...
so you would have to multiply that with the number of hours in a year to get the kWh/a...
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written by QG, August 24, 2009
In response to Joe's comment...China is indeed making moves...regardless of the fact that they have a higher carbon emissions rate to begin with.
I think it's an example for all countries to follow, to make these energy initiatives a priority in their budget. I read recently that China is allocating 23% of its half-trillion-dollar economic stimulus for renewable energy projects. Compare that to the $6 billion the U.S. has designated...that's less than 10%.
Another interesting article about wind power in China:
http://www.greenchipstocks.com/articles/china-wind-energy/470
I think it's an example for all countries to follow, to make these energy initiatives a priority in their budget. I read recently that China is allocating 23% of its half-trillion-dollar economic stimulus for renewable energy projects. Compare that to the $6 billion the U.S. has designated...that's less than 10%.
Another interesting article about wind power in China:
http://www.greenchipstocks.com/articles/china-wind-energy/470
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written by Bob Wallace, August 24, 2009
You seem to think the US is the tail wagging the Dog but it is apparent you have no idea what goes on outside your tiny worldview, open up take a look, one day the US may even catch up instead of being, as it is now, so very far behind.
No, Joe, I don't think the US is world leader in everything. Were you to look back over the posts in this thread you wouldn't make a ridiculous statement such as that.
But I suspect you greatly underestimate
the amount of biogas produced from waste materials in the US.
I didn't find a site that summarized US biogas production but did find a few tidbits. Apparently there are more than 20 biogas plants in the state of Michigan alone, and as for size...
"Biogas production also is ramping up in other parts of the country including at a plant in Texas that claims to be the largest producer of biomethane that's converted to renewable natural gas in North America and possibly the world. (Another plant under construction in Iowa claims it'll be the biggest biomethane producing plant in the world when it's fully completed)."
Now whether the Iowa plant is or is not larger than the largest China plant matters not to me. I'm just happy to see that lots of places are making wise moves to harvest energy from the sewage/waste stream rather than simply tossing it aside.
Biogas has been produced in the US since at least the 1970s. Essentially none, as far as I know, has been produced on the individual level for cooking as is being done in India, China and other developing countries as there has been no need. Our infrastructure has been adequate to bring electricity to all but the most remote locations and even in most of these bottled propane was readily available. I believe almost every kitchen quit cooking with wood and switched to gas or electricity at least
fifty years ago.
No, Joe, I don't think the US is world leader in everything. Were you to look back over the posts in this thread you wouldn't make a ridiculous statement such as that.
But I suspect you greatly underestimate
the amount of biogas produced from waste materials in the US.
I didn't find a site that summarized US biogas production but did find a few tidbits. Apparently there are more than 20 biogas plants in the state of Michigan alone, and as for size...
"Biogas production also is ramping up in other parts of the country including at a plant in Texas that claims to be the largest producer of biomethane that's converted to renewable natural gas in North America and possibly the world. (Another plant under construction in Iowa claims it'll be the biggest biomethane producing plant in the world when it's fully completed)."
Now whether the Iowa plant is or is not larger than the largest China plant matters not to me. I'm just happy to see that lots of places are making wise moves to harvest energy from the sewage/waste stream rather than simply tossing it aside.
Biogas has been produced in the US since at least the 1970s. Essentially none, as far as I know, has been produced on the individual level for cooking as is being done in India, China and other developing countries as there has been no need. Our infrastructure has been adequate to bring electricity to all but the most remote locations and even in most of these bottled propane was readily available. I believe almost every kitchen quit cooking with wood and switched to gas or electricity at least
fifty years ago.
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written by Bob Wallace, August 24, 2009
China is indeed making moves...regardless of the fact that they have a higher carbon emissions rate to begin with.
Don't think this is correct, or at least the correct way to look at the carbon issue.
China seems to be the largest carbon emitting country at the moment, but that's a very recent development and it's based solely on a "named place vs. named place" basis. A more realistic comparison would be on a per capita basis.
China releases far less carbon per person than does the US. China releases a larger amount than the US only when you discount the much larger population.
One could damn California and say that the greedy people there use a lot more electricity than do the people in Montana.
But compare the two states on a per capita basis and you'll see that individual Californians use about half as many kWhs per year than do Montanans. There are just a lot more of those energy efficient Californians than there are Montanans.
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written by Bob Wallace, August 24, 2009
Ivan -
so you have a stream of poo coming in and a stream of a certain number ow kW in capacity of heat, electricity etc. coming out...
so you would have to multiply that with the number of hours in a year to get the kWh/a...
I understand the concept of multiplying to get kWh. What I've failed to find is the number of gallons of biogas produced annually in the US and the conversion number (a gallon of biogas = X kWh).
I doubt that Joe has those numbers, he certainly hasn't posted them to prove his point. I would be helpful if he would present data to back up his claims. Otherwise he's just slinging poo.
so you have a stream of poo coming in and a stream of a certain number ow kW in capacity of heat, electricity etc. coming out...
so you would have to multiply that with the number of hours in a year to get the kWh/a...
I understand the concept of multiplying to get kWh. What I've failed to find is the number of gallons of biogas produced annually in the US and the conversion number (a gallon of biogas = X kWh).
I doubt that Joe has those numbers, he certainly hasn't posted them to prove his point. I would be helpful if he would present data to back up his claims. Otherwise he's just slinging poo.
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written by joe, August 24, 2009
Bob, it seems you have a lot of time on your hands and very little knowledge outside a quick google search, try reading a book or actually talking to someone not from your hometown! I once heard a notable enviro scientist say "we in the first world must learn from the developing world how to best manage finite resources'. That is the point I am making and most folks seem to get that. High end tech and arrogance will not win the day. Humility and openess has a much better chance. China, India and even Africa are showing us the way, being frightened of thier superior numbers and techniques will only prevent learning. I have no idea how much biogas the US produces or even what a gallon is(some anachronistic form of measure?)and the fact is when the US is the greatest consumer of resources it matters very little.
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written by Silent Spring, August 26, 2009
Very good discussion. Though slightly heated very informative about the state of China's and the United states energy use.
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written by marcel geers, August 27, 2009
Hank,
I increasingly notice the use of "kW/h" as a measure of energy on ecogeek, the unit is "kWh".
Marcel
I increasingly notice the use of "kW/h" as a measure of energy on ecogeek, the unit is "kWh".
Marcel
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written by Straight Facts, August 31, 2009
Joe: China has no intention of hitting a 20% reduction in electricity consupmtion by 2010. The program I think you are referring to is a program to reduce energy intensity per unit of GDP in 2010 by 20% over 2005 levels. With an economy growing as fast as China's, that does not reduce total electricity consumption but only the rate of growth of that consumption. The concepts are easy to confuse, but someone who makes points with as much swagger as you would be well advised to have his facts straight.
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written by Straight Facts, August 31, 2009
Joe: I like the guy featured in this article http://www.gcb.ngo.cn/en/media...y_0707.pdf, Zhao Zhong, at the Chinese NGO Green Camel Bell. Write to him if you're interested, his English is good.
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written by Straight Facts, August 31, 2009
Sorry the url function truncated my link: http://www.gcb.ngo.cn/en/media/1/20070704-The Green Leap Forward_Washington Monthly_0707.pdf
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written by Amy, September 08, 2009
Very interesting article and topic. It is encouraging to see that China is taking this issue seriously.
Also, its great to see a forum such as this, where people can come together and share their knowledge and interest on this important subject
Also, its great to see a forum such as this, where people can come together and share their knowledge and interest on this important subject
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written by Era Belle, August 29, 2010
It's a good thing that many countries are becoming engaged in promoting renewable energy. There will be less emissions from industrial plants and that can help a lot in the environment. That's really good news
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Additionally China recently shut down over 7,000 of their dirtiest coal generation plants.
Yes, China is still building coal plants, but they are 'state of the art' efficient plants getting the most power for the least CO2 release possible.
Progress is often made by taking small steps....