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Despite the onslaught of a global recession the exponential increase in renewable energy continues! Good thing, or else this job would get, like, boring, and I'd hate to take a week off.
The desert outside of Los Angeles is about to get a system of solar thermal plants that will, at maximum output, produce 1.3 gigawatts of power. Yes, that is more even than large nuclear plants. And please...while commenting, do our best to avoid Back to the Future jokes. This is officially the world's largest planned solar project (at least for a while) beating out China's 1 GW PV plant that was announced this December.
The plant is a joint project of Southern California Edison, the utility that serves the area, and Brightsource, the company who will be building the power plant. The power will be produced by focusing light from a large area with mirrors onto a tower. The heat will then be used to boil water and the steam will turn a turbine, just like a traditional coal or nuclear power plant.
The main advantage of these"solar thermal" power plants over photovoltaic power plants is that the technology is very simple, and thus cheaper. They aren't as efficient per acre, but they're a lot cheaper to build. Solar thermal plants have been shown to, over their lifetimes, be an even better investment than coal-fired power plants, even without government subsidies, so the resurgence in their construction should come as no surprise.
There will be seven of these towers built, each producing between 100 and 300 megawatts of electricity. The first will be finished in 2013 with the rest of the seven to follow.
While BrightSource is emerging as an early leader with more than two gigawatts of capacity planned for construction already, other companies are also actively pursuing the space, and creating a bit of a gold-rush for the world's desert lands. It's good news for us all, and I'm looking forward to watching these massive plants get themselves online!
Via WIRED
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written by Jon, February 11, 2009
I don't know a lot about solar thermal....but is the water that is used recycled? If not, how much water are we talking about wasting? I'd argue it's far more important to preserve water than it is to produce electricity using this method. Of course, if it is recycled then I don't have much of a problem, lol.
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written by David, February 11, 2009
Jon - I have a feel sea water may be involved. I remember reading an article about the same type of solar-thermal power plants being proposed for Africa which took the water from the ocean. This would essentially create a two-birds-one-stone effect by producing distilled water and electricity. As for California I'm not sure...
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written by Nate, February 12, 2009
Water is a renewable resource. Turns into steam, even if its not re-condensed it still isn't lost.
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written by bill, February 12, 2009
Many solar thermal systems don't use water they use oil. Using salt water would be a terrible idea.
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written by Steve Bergman, February 12, 2009
It has always puzzled me why, out of all the things we really do need to be conserving, so many people worry about the one resource in this world that recycles itself completely automatically, purifying itself in the process.
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written by al, February 12, 2009
I know esolar, similar technology uses water in a closed loop, its cooled after being used as steam to generate electricity, then pumped back into the tower to be boiled again.
I imagine its the same here, if they use water, it would be very expensive just to waste all the water once boiled once.
I imagine its the same here, if they use water, it would be very expensive just to waste all the water once boiled once.
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written by clay, February 12, 2009
The water will probably be used in a closed system, so none of it will be lost. It may be desalinated sea water, but it will be pure water. Salt water would cause dozens of problems.
The reason for water conservation is because such a small percentage of the earth's water is fit for human consumption. You can't survive on sea water, and we've polluted many fresh water systems.
The reason for water conservation is because such a small percentage of the earth's water is fit for human consumption. You can't survive on sea water, and we've polluted many fresh water systems.
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written by Pig571, February 12, 2009
Oil, maybe... But most likely they'll be using molten salt for its heat storage capacity on cloudy days. Either way, it would be a closed circuit, meaning no water would be wasted. Here's a couple of diagrams explaining roughly how solar thermal facilities work:
http://hayatandassociates.com/...lant1.jpg
http://www.volker-quaschning.de/articles/fundamentals2/figure4.gif
Semper Fi Mack!!!
http://hayatandassociates.com/...lant1.jpg
http://www.volker-quaschning.de/articles/fundamentals2/figure4.gif
Semper Fi Mack!!!
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written by steve, February 12, 2009
This is a very good discussion because it highlights one of the problems solar thermal plants have to deal with. I operated one of the large solar plants in the Mojave for several years so I am pretty familiar with how they work.
Ok first off there are two main water uses in a solar thermal plant. The first is the steam cycle. It uses a closed system that turns water into steam and then back to water again. This is exactly the way any type of steam plant, such as coal or nuclear, works. Very pure water is used and the loses are minimal. The major loss of water is in the cooling system. The cooling system is what is needed to turn the steam back into water. Most power plants use an open cooling system where the cooling water is cooled by evaporation. This works well but uses a large amount of water to the atmosphere. Last time I read the plans this solar-thermal plant was going to use a ACC (air cooled condenser) for cooling. This is basically a closed system much like a car radiator. The good thing is that much less water is used. The bad thing is they are much less efficient. Many people I know doubt it will work that well in an area that regularly goes over 110f.
As far as energy storage I do not believe this plant has any planed. There is a natural amount of heat stored in the system that will all the plant to operate for a little while if there are a few clouds coming over but I do not believe they have anyway to store heat other than using backup natural gas.
Ok first off there are two main water uses in a solar thermal plant. The first is the steam cycle. It uses a closed system that turns water into steam and then back to water again. This is exactly the way any type of steam plant, such as coal or nuclear, works. Very pure water is used and the loses are minimal. The major loss of water is in the cooling system. The cooling system is what is needed to turn the steam back into water. Most power plants use an open cooling system where the cooling water is cooled by evaporation. This works well but uses a large amount of water to the atmosphere. Last time I read the plans this solar-thermal plant was going to use a ACC (air cooled condenser) for cooling. This is basically a closed system much like a car radiator. The good thing is that much less water is used. The bad thing is they are much less efficient. Many people I know doubt it will work that well in an area that regularly goes over 110f.
As far as energy storage I do not believe this plant has any planed. There is a natural amount of heat stored in the system that will all the plant to operate for a little while if there are a few clouds coming over but I do not believe they have anyway to store heat other than using backup natural gas.
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written by Mitch, February 12, 2009
Hi,
Equally important is that its relatively cheap to store heat so power can be generated 24 hours a day.
The main advantage of these"solar thermal" power plants over photovoltaic power plants is that the technology is very simple, and thus cheaper.
Equally important is that its relatively cheap to store heat so power can be generated 24 hours a day.
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written by bill, February 12, 2009
It is not clear there is any need to store power. During the night when no power is generated demand also drops. Since these solar thermal plants will only be producing a few percentage of the total power to the grid, the grid may already be able to handle any variance by other means.
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written by Anthony, February 12, 2009
In fact if you look at CAISO's website (http://www.caiso.com), you can see that the power spike in California at least is after the sun goes down, from 6-8pm is the peak load. Its this way in the winter, the spring and fall have more even loads (because of the lack of a need for a heater or AC) and the summer has the peak coincidental with the hottest part of the day.
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written by Loosely_coupled, February 12, 2009
The water or whatever low-boiling point liquid being used is most likely in a closed loop with a heat exchanger.. Nothing is wasted...
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written by Mitch, February 14, 2009
Hi,
But the whole point is to start producing most of our power by Solar, Wind, Geothermal etc. One of the best ways to achieve that is with a much higher percentage of solar thermal plants.
It is not clear there is any need to store power. During the night when no power is generated demand also drops. Since these solar thermal plants will only be producing a few percentage of the total power to the grid, the grid may already be able to handle any variance by other means.
But the whole point is to start producing most of our power by Solar, Wind, Geothermal etc. One of the best ways to achieve that is with a much higher percentage of solar thermal plants.
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written by Jon, February 15, 2009
Thanks for all the responses! Good to know that the water is recycled.
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written by eldorado, February 16, 2009
the sun energy is the most powerful and wasted energy that human kind is not using enought.
40 minutes of sun heat/radiation that enter to earth is equal for 1 year of energy that we use on earth.
i am sure that the time will do the job and the solar systems will be cheaper and more efficient.
more demand to solar systems will increase its quality and decrease the expenses.
40 minutes of sun heat/radiation that enter to earth is equal for 1 year of energy that we use on earth.
i am sure that the time will do the job and the solar systems will be cheaper and more efficient.
more demand to solar systems will increase its quality and decrease the expenses.
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written by STAYSTRONG2009, February 17, 2009
the strides we are making in solar energy are great but we have to look in other directions as well.. I recently discovered a company called Energetics Technologies. They have a process called SuperWaveFusion, which could be a possible breakthrough in Cold Fusion. Using an interaction between palladium and deuterium they have reported an excess heat reaction. I am trying to learn more about this process and would like to hear from others about what they think. go solar ower
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written by Nitzan, February 19, 2009
I'm afraid it takes a far longer and more complicated process to distill sea water than to just boil them, plus as one wrote here before, the solar thermal plant system requires very very pure water. Impure water will cause many problems in the equipment.
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written by steve, February 22, 2009
Well in theory there would be no problem at all using sea water to run a solar-thermal plant. You could easily treat sea water to make enough de-mineralized water for the steam cycle and there is no problem using ocean water in an open cooling system. In practicality it would be very difficult. First off I have no idea how you would economically make the ocean water drinking water with a solar plant. It would be a huge expense to pump it to the desert where it would be used. Another huge problem would what you would do with the dissolved solids, such as sodium and calcium, that would come out of the ocean water.
Now they have been talking for years about taking water out of the Gulf of California and running it to the Salton Sea to help raise the level. The Salton Sea is below sea level so the expense would be less. It would be possible to use that water in a once threw cooling system. The area around the Salton Sea would be a good area for solar production. I know it will probably never happen , like most things we talk about on here, but is one possibility.
Now they have been talking for years about taking water out of the Gulf of California and running it to the Salton Sea to help raise the level. The Salton Sea is below sea level so the expense would be less. It would be possible to use that water in a once threw cooling system. The area around the Salton Sea would be a good area for solar production. I know it will probably never happen , like most things we talk about on here, but is one possibility.
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written by Dan Nguyen, February 23, 2009
I think that solar power is a good energy sources and helping to solve our energy problem. Using solar energy, we can cut the amount of greenhouse gases( the main gases creating global warming), while have enough energy for human activities. On the other hand, solar power is unlimited, so that we can use it for a long time and cheaper than coal fuels. Finally, solar energy is a main source for us in the future.
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