Comments for Would You Buy Honeywell’s Home Wind Turbine? at http://ecogeek.org , comment 1 to 30 out of 20 comments http://ecogeek.org Sat, 18 May 2013 03:04:56 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-47588 I live in southwestern CT (wind zone 2...damn it!) where Hurricane Sandy just did a number on us, as everyone knows. Trees downed everywhere and whole towns without power for weeks. Well before Sandy's arrival, I've been doing due diligence on a solar/wind/geothermal triple-play. I'm fortunate and $ is not my gating issue. I don't expect the solar/wind combo to alleviate my electric bill in any significant way, as I've got a lot of square footage to account for. I just want to have the independence to generate power apart from the grid to run essential systems like heating, refrigeration and lighting to whatever degree possible with a sizable and fully charged battery storage capacity, when needed. I dig the environmentally clean aspects of each of these 3 techs and would rather put the financial investment here, rather than into a diesel generator, as power outages are far too common in this area, even without major storms. I came to this thread hoping to find a few testimonials from current owners of the Honeywell unit, as this is the unit I'm focused in on. I'm liking it's magnet tech, it's size, It's light weight, it's 2 MPH start-up speed, it's quiet operation, the fact it's backed by an established brand/company like Honeywell for warranty purposes and it's sensible and compact control panel. Any current owners out there willing to share? Would appreciate the feedback. - Ted Fri, 23 Nov 2012 13:33:00 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-40577 To clarify a previous poster's mis-conceptions on Big Turbine "Capacity Factor": it is the anticipated turbine output (based on location) divided by the turbines label plate rating ... in other words, if they say "1500 kw-hr annual based on 10 mph winds" then they have already factored the CF in. If they just stated the max rating, then you would have to come up with a CF (typically 20-30%) based on the annual average wind speed. - Bill Wright Tue, 03 Aug 2010 12:56:45 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-40059 The author's math doesn't take into account the much higher electricity rates paid by larger electricity consumers. If you exceed your "baseline quantity" the last Kwh of electricity on your bill can cost 4x more than the first. Look at your electricity bill. PG&E charges 12 cents/ Kwh for your baseline usage. 14 cents for 101%-130% of baseline. 29 cents for 131%-200%. 42 cents for 201%-300% and 50 cents for over 300%. In May, we used 61 Kwh over 300% of baseline. At 50 cents per Kwh the cost was $30.50. We used 378 Kwh at 201%-300% at 42 cents per Kwh at a cost of $159. So we have a total 439 Kwh at rates about 4x higher than the baseline price discussed in the article. If the turbine produces 130 Kwh per month (+/- 1,580/yr) our savings would be: 61 Kwh @ 49 cents per = $30.50 plus 69 Kwh @ 42 cents per = $29.00 fot a total savings of about $60 a month. On top of that we pay a bit over 5% for "taxes and other" bringing the savings to $63/ month. So that's about $750/yr. savings. We'd save $4,500 in 6 years; $5,250 in 7 years; $6,000 in 8 years. The next part of the calculation is to compare the savings to the opportunity cost of the $4,500 initial cost(also known as Net Present Value). Say you parked $4,500 somewhere with a 3% annual return. in 6 years you'd have $5,534. In 7 years $5,700. In 8 years you'd have $5,871. So after 8 years, you'd save as much money for investing $4,500 into the turbine as if you invested the $4,500 into a 3% bond. In year 9, the savings start to mount. The $750 annual electricity savings compare to about $150 in interest on the bond to produce a roughly $600/year advantage for the turbine. This advantage gets eaten into by 3%/yr compounded. This presumes that electricity rates don't rise. Probably not a safe presumption. It also presumes that you spend $0 on maintaining your turbine, another unsafe presumption. It also presumes that your bond doesn't default. You tell me if that's a safe presumption these days. Bottom line: If you pay a premium for electricity usage substantially over your baseline quantity, the break even point on your $4,500 investment is 6-8 years. Cut that time in half and I think I still have a hard time convincing my wife to put a 6 foot fan on the roof of our house in order to save $750 a year. - Rhinus Maximus Wed, 30 Jun 2010 15:09:27 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-37333 inevitably, consumers have the last word. has anyone bought or know of anyone that has purchased this model and their feedback? :-* - J. Quincy Sammy Mon, 15 Mar 2010 22:38:02 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-35290 As a solar / RE Installer, I like the unit. Anyone who wants can download design software (free) and run the numbers on this themselves. www.retscreen.net/. A small sclable wind solution is needed. I like that this is enclosed blades, and quiet..needed for residential applications. I would like to, when i have time, look at this on a scaled installation also. - Kevin Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:41:08 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-33591 I wonder, why everyone thinks only about installing this thing to save some money on electric bills, forgetting about places, where you can only dream of them, even in double price? This thing would be excellent for powering remote repeater sites or cell towers in places, where there is not much sun to install solar batteries and power consumption is decent. Anyway this thing IS cheaper, than solar one, isn't it? - David Jashi Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:45:00 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-32761 I must say Yoni, and this is said with all do respect - you must look at the bigger picture. As a pilot, first in the USAF, and now flying commercially for the past seven years - I have literally spent my entire adult life flying our young men and women into conflicts in the Middle East where I see first hand as the caissons roll off the trucks and into my lower cargo hold - of the "true cost" of my energy use. I think your math is faulty, as many in this thread have already mentioned - with incentives etc - we are now down to about $1 per KW for wind and this Honeywell comes in around that price - The thing I like most about it - is it is easy to set up - not complicated with a lot of moving parts - and the "idea" is revolutionary - One of the big efficiency issues with wind - and I see thousands of them popping up here in Germany when I'm flying over here - is that they all have gears etc - which brings up their cost and lowers overall efficiency. The Honeywell ingeniously IMHO - has figured that issue out by placing the magnets that will generate the electricity on the blades themselves and enclosing the blades in a "housing" that acts as the coils housing in a generator - very cool. Next time you fly on a jet take a look at the high by-pass fan jet engines - they are built almost exactly the same way - When engineers moved to these engines from the "old style" engines - we saved about 70% of our fuel by - by-passing about 80% of the air through that housing but not through the combustion chamber. When I saw the Honeywell for the first time I kicked myself for not thinking of it myself having been flying jets for over 25 years now. Bottom line for me is not that we can make our own energy as cheaply today as we can from oil or gas or god forbid coal - but that when we factor in all the social, as well as financial costs - let alone the costs to those troops I keep carrying over to the sands of the Middle East - There is simply no option for me. I'm in the process of building a new home on a south facing ridge line in upstate NY - yes I love the view from the property - but the real reason I'm there - is the last time I sat on the tarmac in Iraq watching them load those caissons - I promised myself I'd do something - if only for my own home and own family - to show what was possible - maybe not practical yet - but possible - Only then - can those of us with - progressive minds - Hope to change the minds and actions of others. I thank you for starting this thread but humbly disagree with your final analysis. - Sean Crotty Thu, 26 Nov 2009 22:10:27 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-32530 A few quick comments: This turbine was designed at the Michigan Alternative and Renewable Energy Center at Grand Valley State University in Muskegon MI and the designer, Imad Mahawili, had originally hoped that the units would retail for under $2,000. However, with the licensing of the technology to Honeywell, the price has more than doubled, driven more by advertising and marketing costs than by manufacturing costs, an unfortunate reality in today's corporate world. Additionally, the output claimed is for Class 3 and 4 wind areas (approx. 2000 kWh for Class 3 and around 2,560 for Class 4). This amounts to about 38 kWh per week output or about 5.4 kWh/day, certainly doable in the midwestern states that fall within the Class 3 and 4 wind areas. Finally, even at $4500 plus $1500 for installation = $6000, less 30% federal tax credit for small wind installation ($1800), you're now at $4,200. There are many state incentives that will effectively cut that amount in half and you are back to about $2,000 or $1/kWh which is quite competitive with most other small wind systems. Despite naysayers, of course the price should include the savings attributed to state and federal incentives (if the oil, gas, and coal industries did not have such incentives for the past 3 generations, those industries would not exist as we know them--certainly a good idea, but no reason to downplay the value of incentives to level the playing field for new energy technologies. - Dan Sitarz Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:16:51 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-32117 Having just read the honeywell review in PM I must say it sounds like a really cool design. Being an engineer I just love it when somebody thinks outside of the box. So good to read the blogs on this subject, it's true....it's not always about the $$$, the long term good it can do OUR environment (I breath the same air, even in Africa when I'm here!)must not be forgotten and yes I do think that it costs to much....I'm sure the Chinese will oblige with a cheaper copy but I would be far happier if it was made in the USA...for many reasons. Congratulations Honeywell on such an innovative design. - Paul Hunter Mon, 09 Nov 2009 10:56:20 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-31883 The cost for this and other wind turbines including solar panels are way to high. When Sony can sell a 30" HDTV for $300 which is way more technical to build, than a 6' diameter bicycle wheel with fan blades attached with magnets on the ends for the rotor and a stator on the the outside. What I'd like to know what it actually costs Honeywell to build one, I'd bet it's less than $1,000. Most of these solar and wind companys have been trying to sell there products for 40 years and only a few buyers have ever purchased them, remember the late 70's? Now everyone one is on a green kick again and no manufacturer will sell these products any cheaper than they did before, because they are trying to capitalize on a fad and the people that just have to have the fad first. Once someone finally sells the product at a lower price but in large volumes will the green revolution really start, and the have resonable payback periods. By then the goverment will just tax the hell out of anyone who has solar or wind, to make up from the lost taxes the power company once provided to them. Right now the only way I see that I can put in alternitive energy is to build it myself, which can be a disaster in itself. I do like Honeywells idea, they just need to lower the price to the real world. - tracey whyman Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:41:47 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-30809 The comparison between computer technology and wind technology is interesting. One major difference - the only way to make wind turbines BETTER is to make them BIGGER. The opposite scaling evolved in the computer chip. Wind can go so far - maybe 5 to 7% of our mix. Then it becomes the dominant factor (over demand fluctuation) in voltage/frequency regulation = negating much of the purported emissions reduction it advertises. Has anyone seen Michael Goggin?. - Tom Stacy Sat, 26 Sep 2009 21:58:19 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-29145 1. Honeywell claims in their literature that "Class 4 winds represent the majority of North America." A quick look at this wind resource map will tell you differently: http://www.windpoweringamerica.gov/wind_maps.asp 2. The wind speed readings on this, and most other wind speed charts, were taken at an altitude of 50 meters which is relevant only if you live in a tree house. 3. At 15-18 feet (the height of a typical one story house) you would be hard pressed to encounter mean, average, or any other measurable wind speeds greater than 12 mph. 4. At 12 mph, a 5.7 foot prop (the diameter of the Honeywell) would generate approximately 67 kWh of electricity per month. 5. This would translate to an estimated annual savings of $96 at $0.12/kWh. 6. Payback: $4,500 - $1,350 (30% tax credit) = $3,150. $3,150/$96 = 32 years. On the plus side: Over the 20 year useful life of this turbine, the cost per kWh would average out to around $0.20 which isn't bad in the world of alternative energy systems. This amount would further be reduced by an additional 20-25% depending on your state's energy rebate policy and, of course, the payback period would be reduced by the same percentage. Assuming an additional $1,000 for installation, I estimate the cost per watt for the Honeywell system to be slightly under $7(before rebates) which is a buck less than the average $8(before rebates) per watt cost for solar. Once again, not bad. Finally, I really like the idea of prepackaged electronics (inverter, etc.) sized to match the system. This concept is much like the "boiler room in a box" system used for hydronic heating and will really keep a lid on installation costs. Source: http://www.alternative-heating-info.com/windpower_residential.html - Sam Streubel Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:16:35 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-29072 This turbine only makes sense if it can quickly offset emissions caused by making it. Without that data, it is irrelevant to know how much money one can save by using it. - payatz Tue, 04 Aug 2009 11:28:03 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-28980 Good day, I'm happy to chime in. As VP of Business Development and Marketing at WindTronics, I believe these comments assume same old same old, but there is nothing traditional about this technology. As per our web site, "the Honeywell Wind Turbine's (HWT)Blade Tip Power System (BTPS) replaces the traditional gear box, shaft and generator of typical wind turbine technology. The Honeywell Wind Turbine’s gearless Blade Tip System creates a “free wheeling’’ turbine, generating energy from the blade tips (where the speed lies) rather than through a mechanical center gear". I'd be pleased to share footage from a wind tunnel demonstration of how the system operates at 8mp when traditional turbines are just kicking in...the velocity of the HWT is off the charts. WindTronics was created to make Wind Energy Generation affordable and efficient. This required a complete redesign. That's what we've done and yes we come to the cusp of maximum efficiency which was our plan. In regards to payback, DOE states as average power consumption is 11,000kWh. At 2000 kWh in Class 4 wind, this represents 18%. No doubt Federal, State and Utlity rebates play a significant role in the payback equation, but thankfully we have these rebates and incentives to help us make a difference. Think about magnets at the blade tips, no gears or shafts, startup at 1mph and the physics of weights on the blades tips. We undertsand that small wind has disappointed to date. We didn't set out dressup exisiting technology, we literally turned existing technology inside out. Brian Levine - Brian Levine Thu, 30 Jul 2009 18:50:49 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-28895 I believe that there are home brewed options that go for about 25% the cost of this machine. Its still pretty early in the game, and I think that big name machines will have to come down in cost in order to compete. - Bob Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:06:31 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-28872 As long as it saves - Fred Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:24:00 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-28846 Just a brief note... some of use nowhere near 10,000-11,000 kWh of electricity per year. I live in a well-designed 220 square metre suburban house. Granted there are only 2 of us, but we use less than 5kWh per day, which translates to 1,825kWh per year. A combination of a smallish PV system (1.5kW) and a decent small wind device (average wind speed in my location is excellent) would easily see me selling energy back to the grid. Thus, these sort of small scale devices (I haven't looked at the technical details of this particular machine, though) are useful in some situations. - Chris Sat, 25 Jul 2009 21:41:26 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-28840 Davis/Other sub-$100 weather stations. $300-400 gets one that records data that can be downloaded to computer. Looks like I've been word-limited... - Bob Wallace Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:12:42 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-28836 [i]on-site estimate [/i] Hummm.... Did I use up my daily word allotment? Anyway, one can use a - Bob Wallace Sat, 25 Jul 2009 02:32:58 +0100 http://ecogeek.org/wind-power/2871-would-you-buy-honeywells-home-wind-turbine#comment-28833 It is about the Benjamins... at least how you spend them. You are MUCH MUCH MUCH better off spending that money on a solar array, or up insulation on your house, or on a hybrid car, or on high efficiency appliances etc. The fact that even Honeywell claims that a handful of CFLs deliver a similar energy value *should* tell you something. And Bruce... wind power varies with the cube of wind speed. So even if the rotor turns in 3mph winds, it's not going to generate much. Try cranking a 100 watt generator by hand sometime. It's a LOT of work. - bbm Fri, 24 Jul 2009 22:20:30 +0100