Comments for GE's New Water Heater Could Kill 30 Coal Plants at http://www.ecogeek.org , comment 1 to 62 out of 20 comments http://www.ecogeek.org Mon, 20 May 2013 08:31:27 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-46758 I have been looking at rheem gas furnaces lately. I heard great recommendations from my brother. I was wondering if anyone else had tips or comments about rheem gas furnaces? - sally johnson Thu, 07 Jun 2012 10:50:14 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-46126 I'm glad that this finally happened and that some companies are forward thinking enough to not let "lack of consensus" stop them from thinking about the environment. Water heaters are getting more efficient. Does anyone know if industrial heat pumps are also being revamped to be more eco-friendly? - Evelyn Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:00:42 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-37104 One minor point to note is that on top of the 50% increase in efficiency they're claiming, they could squeeze a little more out of it by lowering the hot water delivery temperature. For every 10 degrees lower that you set your hot water heater, you can save an estimated 3%-5% on your hot water heating costs. - Direct Vent Water Heater Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:54:19 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-36585 A few people have mentioned heat traps. My understanding was that most water heaters have this built-in already? But it is below the top insulation, so not visible. I didn't install a heat trap in 1999 when I replaced mine, thinking it had one. And I have peeled back the pipe insulation when hot water hasn't been used for a while and find both In & Out pipes seem to be about room temperature. And GE says they will start building them in USA in 2011. http://www.gereports.com/ges-new-ky-deal-marks-a-great-time-to-be-in-hot-water/ Finally, Charlie asks if it will work in his 50 degree basement. The above page says it functions as a heat pump down to 45, then switches to electrical resistance. I am tempted by this style of water heater, but leery of spending $1200+ to buy one. The payback would be 4+ years, and you might be unlucky and have it leak/break in year six, for instance. Oh, one good feature that I saw in earlier research was they run on 120V, rather than 240V. That means an emergency power source could be just 120. - John Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:31:03 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-36309 GE water heaters are flimsy? Almost all water heaters are made in China now and all in the same factory. They just skin them to whichever manufactures order it is. I am installing a GE heat pump (Hybrid) now. My old electric was inside the house and the heat pump unit is much bigger than my existing 40 gallon unit so I am having to remote my water line out to the garage. Would be better out there anyway as there is far more air so such heat out of. My old standard electric unit is 25 years old and needs to be replaced anyway. I figured I would give this Hybrid unit a try. It is very similar to the Rheem since both are made in China I would expect that. The Rheem is a bit taller than my unit though. The only complaint I have so far is the way the supply lines come out. You either have to make a plumbers rig way high to clear the filter for removal or turn the heater sideways. In a large room or garage this is not an issue but in a smaller space it could be. I should finish it up tonight and will see how it goes. - Tom Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:46:15 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-35747 [b]these GE water heaters WILL NOT kill any coal plants. These heaters are so flimsy and un-reliable, the cost to recycle the heaters when they fail will ensure those coal plants run for many years, not to mention the energy used by their competitors to make a water heater that lasts more than 24 months. [/b] (Plummer in NYC and I replace these units at least 2 a week) - dephcon5 Wed, 03 Feb 2010 11:10:00 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-35051 Like most things this is a complicated issue. I refer to the Hybrid Heat Pump Water Heater. There are many factors that enter the equation to determine the value of this unit. Cost of fuel, which many refer to. The effect of subtracting heat from the surrounding area in which the unit is working. Dehumidifying the air (generally a good thing). The longevity of the unit (some claim there have been problems with this technology). How the install is done (insulating the hot water feed pipes. Tax incentives (Fed & State & local) -- here in Maine we have a state incentive of a flat $250 off the top. Add the Fed 30% and perhaps more to come. What I really want is some real world and ACCURATE numbers in actual use. I know people like to toss around numbers, but we really need the National Labs (Oak Ridge and Lawrence Berekely) to do the sound, carefully monitored tests. Until then we're more in a guessing trance. Given all that, I have to wonder why we just wouldn't do SOLAR. The fuel source is 100% guaranteed forever (if it fails we have other more pressing problems). The longevity of evacuated tube technology is obviously very long. There's not a whole lot to fail. Of course, you need sunshine available, but that's easy to check. I'm not rushing into the sexy and elegant GE Hybrid unit -- not until I can prove that it's efficient for me and the planet. Note: Don't expect to get much from insulating the pipes. Natl labs have demonstrated that well insulated (emphasis on "well") pipes can contain some residual heat for no more than 1/2 hour. Better to install a heat trap at the top of the heater to prevent natural convection losses (mandatory in CA). It costs very little to do, esp during an install of a new unit. Do this in ANY case for some real 24-hour a day savings. - Dirk Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:58:24 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-32908 Interestingly, the 15-year cost of ownership for either a heat pump water heater or an instant unit is about the same as a regular electric water heater. The best way to save is insulate hot water pipes, use a high efficiency washer (expensive) and water saving shower heads (inexpensive). If you don't want to spend hundreds on a new washer, buy cold water detergent and use cold water for laundry. That will save more energy than a solar water heater. - Randy DeVinney Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:27:24 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-31087 If you live in the South, get it as soon as you you need to replace your elecric hot water heater. Maybe even a little bit sooner if you want to take advantage of the government rebate for one third of the heater and installation costs. But if you live in colder Northeast, Midwest and Rocky Mountain States your energy and cost savings are going to be much less. Probably on the order of 50% less or more. That's just because the heat pump has to take the heat out of the air. And in cool basements there is just not that much heat to remove for much of the year. The standard electrical heating element will probably do most of the work then. Rheem seems to acknowledge this a little more than GE, but you still have to scroll down to the lower part of their product description to see that different "zones" in the country will have different energy savings: http://www.rheem.com/Products/tank_water_heaters/hpwh/hpwhhomeowner/ In a field test in Connecticut with (non-GE) heat pump units, only 6 out 15 households found a cost savings, and this was during a 9 month period that included all of the warm months, but only half of the cold months in a year: http://www.cee1.org/eval/db_pdf/277.pdf Also, even though this technology has been around for a long time, add on heat pump water heater units have had a high break down rate. At that field test in Connecticut, 4 of the 15 units broke down before 9 months. GE does guarantee parts for 10 years, but labor for only one. Hopefully they have a more reliable unit than other companies have made. - Charlie Fri, 09 Oct 2009 14:08:41 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-30649 I live in the cold Northeast. My basement is only 68 degrees in the summer and in the 50's in the winter. Will the heat pump technology make sense for homeowners like me? - Charlie Tue, 22 Sep 2009 16:10:43 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-29821 This is a very "Middle Class America' item, and the Uber-Rich have us on the run! Is it imported from Asia? Who is going to buy Shiite like this when we are all down in "Hooverville" How do you hook one up in a tent city? Some-one should point out that forclosed, unemployed Americans no longer buy stuff to fill the Uber-Rich purses, and they should market this in China, where the jobs and paychecks are, not here in Shanty town U.S.A. - Uncle B Wed, 26 Aug 2009 07:57:45 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-27892 All, I look forward to the GE unit but have been a long time proponent of the technology. You might find this product interesting and we have just begun marketing the 3rd generation. www.nextgenes.com. you can buy directly from my company if you like please inquire. - Chip Curtis Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:56:59 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-24176 For all you who claim all electric appliances are bad, here is the way I see it: Units (BTU, kWh, therms, whatever) Electric: 100 units X 0.45 eff. at power plant (though 50% plants are popping up and 60 has been reached) X 92.5% (transmission line losses) 2.2 (EF of GE heat pump water heater)= 91.6 Gas: 100 units X .99 (pipeline losses) * .84 (most tankess water heaters, though some can reach 96.6%) = 83.2 So looking at that, you can't call this a bad technology. Cost: Will vary pending on where you are, but where I'm at, electricity is a smidge over $.08/kWh and NG is $1.53/therm and since .08 x 29.3 kwh/therm = $2.34/therm of electric, a more noble form, of energy (it is possible thermodynamically to get effeciencies of over 100% when going from electric to heat, but will never reach 100% when going from heat to electric energy). When you combine that with th eff. above your cost per unit energy becomes very close. All that said, I would much rather have a house that did not have gas lines running to it. Rather not have a gas bill. Rather produce as much off of solar energy as possible. So as many of you have said already, Solar thermal is the way to go. AND THAT BRINGSME TO MY "NEED MORE INFO". I recently went to a conference where they said this heat pump water heater is expected to be around $1500. BUt the speaker also said that this heater is supposed to know when to use heat pump vs. electric resistance heat, but he would not go into details. According to this site, they said when it gets to ambient temp. To me, that makes no sense as you can still get an EF of over 1 when you reached ambient temp. Can anyone with insight tell me how the brains of this machine works? A solar preheat would make no sense with a heat pump water heater if the temp is coming in at 75F and the heat pump kicks off at 70F in leiu of the electrical element. - sutton Thu, 12 Feb 2009 00:00:22 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-23579 this is a typical leftist blog, the terms of usage are check your freedom at the door if it doesn;t line up. If you are in to dissenting information you should check out this link http://www.populartechnology.net/2007/10/no-consensus-on-global-warming.html - Brandon Hobbs Tue, 27 Jan 2009 22:37:32 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-22792 So I've read alot about how gas water heaters are more efficient and consequently cheaper than electric. Yet I'm still thinking an electric WH will be cheaper than gas for my situation and here's why. Here in the great state of Georgia, we deregulated natural gas in 1997. The short story is we pay fees to have the gas delivered via pipe line to the house and fees to purchase the gas. Depending on the month, these fees can be as high as $46/mo. to a low of $26/mo. even if you use zero CCF of natural gas. The only gas appliances in my house are the furnance, gas fireplace and the water heater. So during the summer months, the only gas appliance requiring gas is the water heater. If I had an electric water heater and cancelled my gas service for the 6 months when gas was not needed, I believe I could save about $100/yr. This includes a reconnect fee of $50. Using 2007 data, I've calculated an expenditure of $291 in fees, taxes and gas during the months that I propose turning off the service. That's a chunk of change that could be used for electric water heating. Obviously this only works if there are no other gas appliances that are needed during the summer months, i.e. gas range. So is gas cheaper? Not always. - Greg Riley Wed, 07 Jan 2009 14:40:27 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-19975 Finally, a Big name brand is jumping into the Heat Pump Water Heater Market, with a fully intergated unit no less! Other companies (i.e. AERS and Airgenerate) already have heat pump water heater addon units to be used with regular tank water heaters. I was thinking about getting one of those, but if this is true then I'd be willing to wait until Q4 2009 to get a fully integrated unit that is easier to install. - David Wang Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:16:46 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-18699 I installed a heat pump on my water heater two month ago & it works great. I live in Hawaii with my water heater in the garage so I'm in the ideal place for this technology. These will also work in cooler climates but I'm not sure how well if it was placed inside the house since the noise might be offensive & the cooling in the house might need to heated in the winter. I put a meter on the unit and use less that 2 KWH per day or about 15% of the 13 KWH rated usage. I've turned off the breaker to the Elec heater and havn't had any problems. My unit is called a Airtap ($500) but others are available on the market. - Gary Sun, 14 Sep 2008 14:51:35 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-16453 The GE is a combination of heat pump and resistence heating. The heat pump uses electricity but it uses it to move the heat from the air to the water. Moving heat is much more efficient than creating heat with electricity. The GE is a hybrid because it also has an electric resistence element for heating. The more you use this heating element, the less efficient it would be, but I think the intention of the heating element is to merely supplement the heat pump. This unit will be best for warm climates as it will output cool, dehumidified air from the heat pump. - Russ Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:15:22 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-13776 To sing the praises of an electric water heater is crazy unless you don't have natural gas as an option. Electric heating water isn't efficient nor the most eco-friendly option. This story was obviously generated by a GE press release. - stacey Fri, 30 May 2008 12:21:24 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/1502#comment-12432 There is a problem with the tankless units, though it crops up more if many of them are installed in the same area. While it saves energy overall, the biggest issue is that they use a lot of power in a short amount of time. Since a lot of people tend to take showers or use hot water at the same time (early morning before work/school after dinner for dishes, etc), then the power company can see huge spikes in peak consumption which require delicate loading and even distribution. Not an issue as a few homes convert, but if a new development goes up and all the homes have this installed, then it could create some issues. - Mike B Sat, 26 Apr 2008 11:42:27 +0100