MAR 19

So many really neat inventions always coming to light. It makes me wonder, with so many advancements coming on the market;

1) How many can and are be adopted?
2) Are our oil issues really something to be worried about?
3) With what is currently known, what is estimated impact in reduced oil needs?
3)

What is the power output of the diesel engine? Can it really move the car at highway speed on a long trip? The accumulated hydraulic energy will be used up after just a few minutes on the highway without any regenerative braking.

What they're really offering is a catalyst that can turn 3.8 million of someones money into smoke. Seriously, EG needs someone that can separate hopeless hype from news.

Hydraulic accumulators as regen devices aren't brand new - UPS is testing them in some delivery trucks.

Still, no amount of hydraulic magic can magically change the amount of energy required to push a car through the air. The Prius will be a collector's item before this car ever meets its claims.

It's not about changing the amount of energy required to push a car through the air. It's about how much energy in the form of fuel you consume to produce that power. Hydraulic drive trains and diesel engines are inherently more efficient than conventional drivetrains and gas engines. Check out this diesel hyraulic motorcycle.
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/05/22/hydrostatic-drive-diesel-motorcycle/

"Pressurized fluid? huh?"

Read longer than 60 seconds, it explains the concept quite solidly. If you're too lazy to understand the proposal, don't comment.

Every time I see one of these schemes I ask Why?? Every time you convert energy from one form to another you lose energy in the process. Hydraulics are very well established, but not real efficient. Losses would be much less with a direct mechanical drivetrain. As to regen braking - wait till they try to engineer the vehicle dynamics to recoup that much energy - consumers are already having control issues with hybrid regen at about 10%. And, then there is hydraulics - leaks, seals, maintenance.

But, the real issues is - 170mpg?? That is thermodynamically impossible (times two) in a normal Cd 2400 lb car driven by a heat engine - even at Carnot efficiencies, let alone a real engine.

Sorry, sometimes the wheel does not need to be re-invented - at least not just for the sake of re-invention.

Michael Corder - The Energy Blog (http://energy.typepad.com)

Every time I see one of these schemes I ask Why?? Every time you convert energy from one form to another you lose energy in the process. Hydraulics are very well established, but not real efficient. Losses would be much less with a direct mechanical drivetrain. As to regen braking - wait till they try to engineer the vehicle dynamics to recoup that much energy - consumers are already having control issues with hybrid regen at about 10%. And, then there is hydraulics - leaks, seals, maintenance.

But, the real issues is - 170mpg?? That is thermodynamically impossible (times two) in a normal Cd 2400 lb car driven by a heat engine - even at Carnot efficiencies, let alone a real engine.

Sorry, sometimes the wheel does not need to be re-invented - at least not just for the sake of re-invention.

Michael Corder - The Energy Blog (http://energy.typepad.com)

Sounds great, little concerned about accident safety though. I understand the tanks are full of compressed air, but at those pressure levels a tank blow out would be enough to blow the surrounding car to bits!

Very good point sir. Pressure vessels would have to be built to extremely high standards to withstand the loadings of traffic accidents. There would be a lot of damage done by shrapnel in the event of one of these things exploding.

Bearing in mind that China is the likely source of mass produced pressure vessels it is only a matter of time that a very serious accident happens.

With all of the new hybrid and fuel efficient cars that have recently came out, this seems to exceed the expectations. If this car were to really get over 170 miles per the gallon, this could greatly help our environment. With toxins that affect our air such as Carbon Monoxide and Ozone (O3) that seem to be emitted by many vehicles that burn fossil fuels, the less that is emitted the better! With less of these toxins out there, there would be a much cleaner environment! I just hope that this car gets the infrastructure to be widely developed and then sold on the market. This car maybe a new start to environment friendly vehicles. Everyone knows that the stop in the usage of fossil fuels for machinery needs to happen sometime, but we are many years away from that. This Hydraulic car could be a happy medium until we reach the point where renewable resources for fuels are possible. If someone can design a car that is like this, imagine what can be done to build on this new innovation that could take our current improvements further. If we can make a transition from a standard car that runs on gasoline, to a car that needs less and less gasoline, maybe eventually there can be a designed way of transportation that may release substances that are nourishing to the environment. If this new Hydraulic car is a sign of new things to come, then I believe that this new progress is another step to becoming environment friendly.

But then I'm familiar with hydraulics, heavy equipment, and the hydraulic hybrid currently in USE by the US military, and in UPS tests.

The person who commented that the diesel can't handle long drives isn't thinking that holding a speed consumes much less horsepower (force times distance) than accelerating, which can be discounted by storing energy from decelerating, the real energy saver in a hybrid. All the diesel has to do is maintain cruising speed. I'm presuming a sane driving technique.

Hydraulics are very reliable, and have been for years. Ask any Bobcat owner or rental agency, or a commercial fisherman or logger. When you're containing high-pressure fluid, a mature technology, nothing gets in past the seals. Citroen has had high-pressure suspensions for decades. Nothing new there. American cars have had high pressure hydraulic steering for decades, as well as hydraulically activated transmissions that run the life of the car.

I welcome our new hydraulic hybrids overlords!

Finally ! This was invented back in the seventies by Ernie Parker (if memory serves), who was nice enough to email me awhile back. It was blocked back then by the EPA, because they had their own patent pursuits.

Hydraulics are so much more efficient. Tell everyone you know and let's give this the attention it deserves.

I hired out in 1973 to the Jersey Central Railroad. Having observed that Locomotives operated in the now-existant hybrid technology mode, with electric traction motors over each wheel driven indirectly by a diesel through a generator or alternator which also drove an air compressor, I was quick to reognize how this technology could easily be utilized in a passenger vehicle utilizing a very small engine which could be shut down, viz todays hybrid. I had submitted my idea to about 100 techies and railroad execs and passengers in those 30 years, who should know. Almost 100% said CANNOT BE DONE. I wasn't aware, until your article, that anyone was using hydraulics but commented only recently on the future of that as an option as well as fly by wire, such as is in the air bus and other airplanes.

Ten years from now, 2020, I think you will see this hydraulic/constant speed diesel technology taking over most of the vehicles with advanced hydraulic engines utilizing yet-to--be developed super expanding/contracting fluids. Seeing a mechanically driven car will be the equivalent of seeing a pay phone in a Chinese restaurant today. Per usual, the problem of progress is that the bad guys are looking down from their upper offices, sharing the larder with greenless power brokers and politicians . They will have their way as long as they can. IMHO, again, I think we will be looking at China and India and Germany for innovations along these lines as we are bogged down in memememe.

I'm with you, jcsr; I'm getting old also. I sure wish I could ride a train home from work. Think I could get the engineer to stop at school and pick up my teenager, then head on over to Walmart to pick up some cat litter?

I get the feeling that some don't get the reason why energy storage (battery or hydraulic) can result in higher efficiency- it takes as little as 15hp to push Honda Accord sized car down a flat road at constant speed of sixty- but to accelerate at a reasonable rate or handle an incline you need much more HP and need to size the engine accordingly - but with the Ingocar the stored hydraulic energy handles the acceleration, prevents idling loses, allows the engine to be small and just run in it's most efficient RPM- but there is one problem, let's say the engine is sized for 30hp doubling the 15hp for a margin of safety - on flat ground you can sustain 80mph much more that the law allows so what complaint could you have- well the other problem of such a system is a sustained incline - going up and down small hills wouldn't be a problem but there are place in the US where you could be going up an incline for an hour straight- this design would be out of stored energy in a few minutes and your speed would drop and drop, how would you like to be going 25 on a two lane when everyone behind you wants to go 60+, does not sound fun probably even dangerous.

Some corrective comments: WTF wwrites on March 20 that accumulators aren't pressure vessels..That's incorrect, they are.Micheal Crider writes on March 22 that hydraulic systems aren't efficient. That's incorrect. Mechanical drives lose 12 to 14% in transfer of energy. Hydraulic diives can be routinely engineered to transfer power at 95% or greater.

Having spent over 40 years in the fluid power industry, I can tell you that it is not only possible but has been done many times, in many industries, by many major manufacturers, if you know where and how to look for it. Mining vehicles (huge dump trucks) like Euclid and Haulpak have been using the technology for decades just like the locomotive industry. The lowprofile underground mining mfgs with names like Wagner, Eimco and Hemscheid are common. The Germans are VERY good at this. Try Rexroth, Bosch, Hydromatik. Agricultural applications are all over the place. Look up hydrostatic transmissions, the birthplace of CVT's. IN the early 80's busses were outfitted and tested with hydrostatic drive systems for braking/acceleration funded by the DOE, they worked. Major Semi tractor mfgs like Peterbuilt, White and Freightliner (Mercedes-Benz) know the advantages of the systems also. Accumulators have been around for decades, try Greer, Parker, Hydroline. It works and can be controlled, especially with the new generation of electronic components that have redundancy inherent like the aerospace industry which also have been a very big user of hydraulics for decades. Ever see a landing gear or flap system operate? Can be done with the right design and components. New CG Composites help greatly. Someone mentioned logging, very big in hydraulics. Also construction equipment like Komatsu, Hyundia, Mitsubishi have all been doing it for many years. See Bucyrus-Erie. Just have to know what your doing with the design. Safety is no different than that damn gas tank behind your rear.

In reply to the commenters who expressed fear that the pressure tanks would explode and shoot shrapnel. Wrong. You're thinking of the old style metal pressure tanks. Modern tanks are made from carbon fiber and do not explode in a crash. They just crack a bit and leak.

If you look at the (linked) site where the concept is published, you see that the hydraulic accumulator has a membrane that separates the hydraulic liquid from the (pressurized) air that stores the energy.

Great concept, and it would be a natural 4-wheel drive as well!

Whats the hydraulic flow rate of the engine and how big is the tank? would not want it in front of me for a long distances! LOL allright in town though!

Glad to see some other people fluent in fluid power have stood up to defend this article. Keeping up servicing and using good quality filters can extend the life of the system and use very little oil. Also, this system doesn't have to use a diesel engine to power the hydraulics either. A small electric motor coupled with advanced batteries can do the same job. I'd prefer 3000 or 4000 psi of oil in a carbon fibre tank than 80 litres of petrol in a flimsy metal tank!

Some of you may not remember a few years back (2004)that Ford, Eaton, and the EPA developed a diesel/hydraulic hybrid off of a Expedition platform. http://www.epa.gov/oms/technology/420f04019.pdf They ripped out the 5.4L gas motor, transmission, transfer case, etc and replaced them with a 3.8L turbo-diesel (EPA-blessed 50 state unit), hydraulic pump and accumulators. At economies of scale, it was estimated to cost only $600 more than the standard vehicle to build. It got 22mpg FWY and 32mpg CITY! this was developed before the $4.50 gas/$5.50 diesel we saw a few years ago.
Now you must also remember that when you convert mechanical energy to electrical energy, you loose efficiency (and gain complexity) VS going mechanical-to-mechanical. I've played around with hydraulics enough as a pipefitter, owner of a backhoe, and operator of various hydraulic construction eqpt... to realize the real potential for this much simpler technology.
This technology should be much easier to recycle, more dependable, and applicable from a 2 seat "hockey puck" to a bigger-is-better, "Cowboy Cadillac" !

Even if hydraulics were used to just accellerate the vehicle and store the energy during braking and from excess power the engine generates during idle and steady state driving would be worth exploring.

You only need 500+ HP to accelerate a Viper from 0-60MPH in under 5 seconds and not to maintain a steady state 60MPH cruise.

Question I don't have all the math to figure out is if it takes 500HP to accelerate a Viper from 0-60MPH in say 4.2 seconds, how much HP is wasted in heat / dust to stop that same vehicle from 60-0 MPH and I assume it would stop in less than 4.2 seconds? Anyone have an answer?

It's amazing all the griping and negative comments from those who probably haven't spent one dime of their own money trying to better the world. Fear, griping and complaining - no wonder things don't get done.
Hydraulics are very efficient and are proven technology. We need to be thinking radical redesign and thinking outside the box like these guys are doing with this hydraulic motor.
We do the same thing with our HHO generators even though we get the same type of small minded gripers...
http://www.hhokitsdirect.com/HHO-Generators.php

I like it - it's thinking outside the box like we do...

More economical, eco-friendly and roadworthy cars should be invented if they are to be viable options for consumers.

My father created a free piston engine that is smaller than most internal combustion engine and more efficient than the ingo car,too. It works at 3000 psi instead of 7000. The ingo car still has issues, but ours doesn't. We had it sense 2001. Can't find anyone to invest though. HOW SAD IS THAT!!!

Thinking rather simplistically, 170 mpg would be amazing especially as the price of fuel is so high and is likely to remain so.

I've read a lot on hydraulics and am very impressed that companies like Eaton and others are putting these systems into heavy trucks like garbage and UPS trucks. Imagine a garbage truck making the same mileage as a Prius!

To commercialize this (an X-prize win will do wonders) the systems need to be made sufficiently light and smaller but that is a very solvable problem. Carbon fiber tanks take away the danger objections.

It should be clear to most people here that this is an electric hybrid-beater, and a real one at that.

America must shift from a foreign liquid energy based economy to a domestic, electric based one, as oil in the world dwindles to a drip! America has no oil of her own - not a damn drop! Canada has the mighty Tar Sands, but it is so costly to refine as to be worthless at practical prices - hence the need to find alternate energy in the first place! American Scientists feel that there is enough energy in Solar, Wind, Wave, Hydro, Tidal, Geothermal and Nuclear resources at home, in this country, to supply a modernized America with mostly renewable, that is, perpetual, if you prefer, energy beyond our wildest imaginings and at a final price that betters current oil prices. Other economic factors include the higher efficiency of electric bullet trains, large communal apartment blocks with subway connections over suburbs and gasoline cars, and more centralized populations than suburbs. We are talking a monstrous, convulsive paradigm shift for the larger part of the American population here, not an over-night whimsy of a single politician. As we stand, with our foreign liquid energy based economy, we cannot survive the next few decades without tremendous losses: witness, Detroit City, our monument to gasoline and the corrupt corporatist, barracuda capitalism, that is the cancer of our democracy! Before more of our great cities fall, we must stop the rape of our riches by the oil barons and maintain what we have been given by our forefathers. The path is through massive 'Manhattan Project' style developments of Prairie Wind Corridors, Solar developments in the South Western states, Offshore wind development, Nuclear power Plant build-up to match China's efforts, Huge Hydro-electric developments equal to China's Three River plans and sensible sustainable housing plans including solar considerations and super-insulations to conserve energy and promote sustainability. Hydraulics will certainly be used, and all aspects of it, in this massive effort to leave the carbon based economy and go to an electric one, and there are no absolutes - we will still need oil, and lots of it, it is the over-all balance we must shift - from foreign dependency on a dwindling oil resource to dependency on home grown energy for our survival. As it stands, America is squeezed daily for oil and other resources by burgeoning demand from a growing Asia. Asians bid against weakened American fiat dollars with much stronger Yuan for finite world resources, especially oil, which is dwindling in supply on a predictable curve - a curve defined by American scientists long ago, not a new thing or foreign thing at all. America will shift away from oil dependence or become a Third World nation and look like the slums of Detroit everywhere! The choice is discussed in the halls of government as we speak, the time is not right yet for the politicians to profit most, but the time is coming, heralded in with rising oil prices in the world and forced along the way by burgeoning Asian growth and demand - neither of which our armed forces, our political mechanizations, or prayers can alter.

does it make NOISE?
will it reduce road kills and accidents and need for emergency services?

did not read your comments all - did anyone metion the significant loss of efficiency when converting energy to the pressure storage due to the coupeling of heat in the pump - or maybe this problem is solved already over there

I think certainly this technology seems to have potential, especially for the weight-reduction aspect and greater efficiency in power transfer and regenerative braking. Like all technologies, time will tell how well the bugs get worked out.

My greatest fear isn't that the necessary advances don't and won't exist in sufficient number and quality, but instead that the innovators and the patents and the necessary production capital won't join forces soon enough.

Entrenched players who have long been trading very profitably on old technologies can be predicted to act with extreme (if not well publicized) hostility to any new competing innovation. Only when the writing on the wall has faded and they see their revenue stream drying up will they see value in pursuing alternatives aggressively.

We can see this phenomenon in the reliance of our communications industry on aging technologies, pursuing an avaricious tactic of giving the least for the most gain, while nations like Germany and Japan see the value to their wider economies inherent in widespread broadband and have required and subsidized massive expansion of communications technology across their societies.

I fear that decision-makers leading our entrenched industries are waiting until what they believe is the last possible moment to allow innovation to proceed - and only when they can be assured of a lion’s share of the revenue. I also fear that other nations with more integrity in their leadership and greater awareness and education among their populations will leap far ahead in the renewables and increased efficiencies and deprive us of a place in the market.

Much of this, in my estimation, leads back to the root of so many such delays and injustices – the bribery and corruption of our leadership. Greed must be shackled, harnessed and directed before it will work to the good of nations. This will never be done while the selection of our leadership remains the result of a contest of cash rather than a contest of ideas.

Okay, I'm a little behind the curve on this thread, but just found it.
The Ingocar is concept - all of it. Concept is fine; it's where everything starts. But any kind of claim can be made in a concept. 170 mpg for a car that big and heavy is pretty far-fetched, as others have said. 80-90 might be possible.
I'm not knocking the hydraulic idea here. It's one that has been done. Why not check out them whats doing right now with real cars? Lightning Hybrids (you can Google them) is reality. I wish Ingocar luck but since we're wanting to sink our teeth into something with substance, Lightning Hybrids is reality. (Sorry, I have no affiliation with Lightning Hybrids in any way shape or form.

In my opinion the introduction of a decent hybrid car is long overdue. we've had the technology to do this almost as long as cars have been around. let's hope the greedy oil barons don't stop this one from getting out there too!

->@ hybrid,

You do know what plastic is made of, right-oil?
Everything is made of plastic now-a-days.
Your computer, your TV, your car, some food and medicines are even made from petroleum extracts.

Don't worry, "Big, evil, greedy" oil will be making plenty of money after we find something else to push their mobile end-user oil barrels around...and it will probably use something from the oil patch.